New Orleans....It's like a movie

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Charvell
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Post by Charvell » Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:17 pm

I see you paid no attention to the meat of the article and assumed a stereotypical stance. Did you miss the part about letting criminals loose? or maybe the part about rape, lootings, murder? Possibly the part about shooting at rescuers and guardsman?

Everyone knows the welfare state doesn't work. Everyone knows that most (not all) people that get on it never leave it and don't have the desire to better themselves. Why should they? There's no incentive. Until it's taken from you and you have to resort to violence and stealing because all you know how to do is take from people.

There's plenty of other people there who don't resort to these violent tendencies that know what it feels like to actually loose something you've spent years building. These are the people the reporter was talking about when he made comments regarding The many decent, innocent people trapped in New Orleans when the deluge hit

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RLK86
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Post by RLK86 » Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:45 am

Why, yes, I did read the article, thankyou for noticing.

If i understand correctly, the writer is suggesting the Welfare system is responsible for the chaotic aftermath of the disaster in NO. While the bit about them releasing the criminals from the prisons is pretty interesting, and could possibly explain a lot of the ensuing violence, I'm not quite too sure how this bolsters his intended arguement. If you could explain (slowly please, after all, I did miss it the first time), I'd be very much appreciative.

To be honest, I'm surprised that the fact that the author knowingly takes a distressing and serious event and uses it to boast a political opinion doesn't tarnish his credibility enough.

Welfare System responsable for NO chaos? That doesn't strike you as a little wayward? Like, I don't know, blaming illiteracy rates for 9/11. If you don't believe in the welfare system, that's fine, but the author doesnt need to grasp onto every straw he sees to make a point, no matter how far fetched.

I won't start a debate on whether welfare is right or not, but seeing as my mom spent years on welfare to look after three children, I'll say this: No incentive? Living on barely enough money to feed and house you or your family is no incentive to work? Of course not. I mean, it's not like anyone on welfare -can't- work. That would be rediculous. As I alluded to in my previous post, I'd love to have seen what the author's alternatives were.

I'm sure when you've never dealt with the welfare system, it's easy to argue for scrapping it. After all, it could save you a few percent on your taxes. If that isn't a righteous cause, I don't know what is!

People politicising this event for poll gain were bad enough. People politicising like this are worse.

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Phantom16
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Post by Phantom16 » Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:16 am

I agree with Charvell. I'm not against the welfare system. I believe that many people use it responsibly to find a job without the hastle of unbearable financial problems. The issue is the number of people who abuse the welfare system. I know from experience that some people will get to the point where they feel like they deserve stuff just for breathing. They don't understand the concept of working for your money, and become prideful and lose patience. They live off of welfare, figuring "hey, I have a steady flow of money, and because I'm underpriviledged or something, I don't hafta work for it!" A perfect example is when I volunteered at the Salvation Army. We were handing out free (free now!) toys to people on welfare. While a few people thanked me and others for helping and giving, most either complained about not getting enough stuff or grumbled about the quality of the stuff they got.

So now you have a hurricane ravage a city. All the sudden, these people on welfare want shelter, food, water, attention. Nothing wrong with that, except then you plug in the lack of patience and pride. They become like little kids. If they don't get what they want right away, they will take things into their own hands. Thus, you have looting, conflicts with authority, pretty much a disaster.

I know this didn't address much about the rapings, but I wanted to focus on how welfare could be connected to looting and violence. I also want to point out that this is a generalization. I know there are good people out there who are down on their luck and need welfare to survive for a while. However, there is a large number of others who abuse it.
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BT
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Post by BT » Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:18 am

hi, long-time lurker here ;)
I've been reading this with interest, but this just doesn't make sense so I feel I had to respond.

First off, what the US has for a welfare system in my eyes hardly counts as one. (I am dutch). But that is not the point here.

I think you guys have it the wrong way round. Some people have a character defect, or are raised the wrong way by their parents (more likely). They will always behave in the way Phantom suggests, like little kids. That is just the way they are. The welfare system sometimes makes that more visible, but that hardly means that it is the systems FAULT.
If parents would raise their childrin with the right morals, this sort of thing wouldn't happen.

And in no way can the welfare system be responsible for someone commiting heinous crimes like rape and murder. People are responsible for what they do. People are responsible for how they raise their children. You shouldn't simply shift the blame to a system and exhonerate yourself


oh and the rich history of new orleans kinda made me laugh. 287 years old? I recently was at a celebration here in holland for our oldest town. It's existed in some form or another for 2000 years :P
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Meurig
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Post by Meurig » Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:56 am

RLK86 wrote:I'm sure when you've never dealt with the welfare system, it's easy to argue for scrapping it. After all, it could save you a few percent on your taxes. If that isn't a righteous cause, I don't know what is!
A more true statement has not been written in this thread.

It's perfectly easy to slag off a welfare system that you have never properly been a part of from up there in your comfortable home. The talk of there being no incentive to work is bullshit, and while I can't comment on what the American system is like, I can say something about the one in the UK. The jobs that you talk about people turning down in favour of welfare are jobs that you wouldn't wish upon anybody - THATS why theyre turned down. Some people would rather have a shred of decency and nothing else than get marginally more money than they would solely on welfare than work scrubbing toilets in a factory for twelve hours a day, 60 miles from their family, having to rely entirely on public transportation to get there.
The job centre that 'helps' to get people off the dole in the UK finds the worst jobs you could think of. Ones that pay barely more than the dole does, with long hours in shit conditions, surrounded by morons and with no promise of advancement in any way shape or form. And whats more, if you arent seen to be 'actively seeking employment', they stop your benefits. 'Wonderful!' you might say, 'The scum should work for your money!.' - You try getting a decent job through the welfare system, and then come back here and complain about people leeching.

Fucks sake, doesnt your own bible say to care for your fellow man? I don't remember reading any stipulation about his earnings.

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DesertFox82
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Post by DesertFox82 » Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:15 pm

I'd have some choice things to say about that "story", but what I've had to say has already been said before I got to it. Though this Tracinski character rattles on about worthless people taking advantage of a terrible disaster to rape and loot, it appears to me he is using this disaster to further his own political ideas. Sickening.

Oh, and @ Phantom16
[quote]I know from experience that some people will get to the point where they feel like they deserve stuff just for breathing. They don't understand the concept of working for your money, and become prideful and lose patience. They live off of welfare, figuring "hey, I have a steady flow of money, and because I'm underpriviledged or something, I don't hafta work for it!"[\QUOTE]

Til the last line, I thought you were talking about an episode of the OC. If you replace the phrase "I'm underpriviledged or something" with "my daddy's president of So and So Inc." I'd have sworn you were quoting a rich little daddy's-girl I met just yesterday. The attitude that expressed there is rampant across the board, at all social and economic levels.

Perhaps the best solution of all was right in front of us all the time.
[quote="Monty Python's Flying Circus - Episode Five: Man's crisis of identity in the latter half of the twentieth century"]Well I think they should attack the lower classes, er, first with bombs, and rockets destroying their homes, and then when they run helpless into the streets, er, mowing them down with machine guns. Er, and then of course releasing the vultures. I know these views aren't popular, but I have never courted popularity[\QUOTE]

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DesertFox82
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Post by DesertFox82 » Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:19 pm

I'd have some choice things to say about that "story", but what I've had to say has already been said before I got to it. Though this Tracinski character rattles on about worthless people taking advantage of a terrible disaster to rape and loot, it appears to me he is using this disaster to further his own political ideas. Sickening.

Oh, and @ Phantom16
I know from experience that some people will get to the point where they feel like they deserve stuff just for breathing. They don't understand the concept of working for your money, and become prideful and lose patience. They live off of welfare, figuring "hey, I have a steady flow of money, and because I'm underpriviledged or something, I don't hafta work for it!"
Til the last line, I thought you were talking about an episode of the OC. If you replace the phrase "I'm underpriviledged or something" with "my daddy's president of So and So Inc." I'd have sworn you were quoting a rich little daddy's-girl I met just yesterday. The attitude that expressed there is rampant across the board, at all social and economic levels.

Perhaps the best solution of all was right in front of us all the time.
Monty Python's Flying Circus - Episode Five: Man's crisis of identity in the latter half of the twentieth century wrote:Well I think they should attack the lower classes, er, first with bombs, and rockets destroying their homes, and then when they run helpless into the streets, er, mowing them down with machine guns. Er, and then of course releasing the vultures. I know these views aren't popular, but I have never courted popularity.

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Gust0o
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Post by Gust0o » Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:47 pm

Woah Meurig, when was the last time you were in the Job Center? I suspect things have changed a little in the intervening years, as it now caters much more generally for job-seekers... indeed, as a student, might you perhaps be making use of its facilities like so many others of your ilk?

Whilst not all the jobs available are, necessarily, desirable, they do not all fit the stereotype of 'long hours in shit conditions, surrounded by morons and with no promise of advancement in any way shape or form'; no more than your stereotypical welfare recipient is a bastard-spawning piece of trash who left school before he could join his letters together. Though the News of the World does keep doing its best to highlight those that do fit this marvellous description.

That said, in any society such as ours, it's an ideal to keep the numbers on state handouts to an absolute minimum, to free funds for other projects - healthcare, security, infrastructure, whatever it may be - and, as such, our growing welfare culture, through the media and public discourse, has become a bone of contention.
<i>"CORRECTION
In a recent article about Birmingham City footballer Robbie Savage the words "freezing semen directly from the pointed, scaly knob of the Prince of Darkness himself" should have read "digestive biscuit". We apologise for any confusion or embarrassment our error may have caused."</i>

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Charvell
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Post by Charvell » Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:43 am

The system does what it was designed to do. That is give people who are in trouble a chance to get out of trouble. The system fails when, in addition to the above, creates job opportunities for more government employees than is required, relieves citizens of earnings that can be spent more wisely, allows people who don't need help but rather need a cick in the pants to get a free ride, gives little incentive to the prospect of becomming free of the system.

A person in need is a person who needs us.

A person who's lazy is a person who bleeds us.

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Gust0o
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Post by Gust0o » Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:27 pm

Well, I was making reference to the UK system; the US system, from all that I have seen of it, is markedly different in its impact. All I seem to have seen of the US system is black people travelling hundreds of miles on government buses, without reference to their family needs.

Which then cycles back into the question of whether such represents a genuine oppurtunity...

We'd need a more detailed explanation of the US system in practice; volunteers?
<i>"CORRECTION
In a recent article about Birmingham City footballer Robbie Savage the words "freezing semen directly from the pointed, scaly knob of the Prince of Darkness himself" should have read "digestive biscuit". We apologise for any confusion or embarrassment our error may have caused."</i>

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