Petition to fix the Sim

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Swor
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Post by Swor » Mon May 31, 2004 2:42 am

http://www.thegamingunion.co.uk/Forum/c ... 2;t=000132

This nifty little rule was slipped quietly before given any sort of decent debate.

Yes i agree with some parts of it BUT:
in the current form it has made SSDs SOVs BULWKs and INTs useless and has catered to those that build fleets of 2000 fighters

Maps have not been made larger, sides do not start closer together and HW ship speeds are not equal to their EvR speeds.

If 2 large fleets Collide on one another there is no longer any fight that might mean there is a winner or a loser.

One side launches its fighters at the weak faster ships obliterates them then leaves. This is going to lead to huge fleets of small capital ships, and large groups of fighters.
Who does this help and why am i mad?

This rule TOTALLY destroys any strengths the imperials had and makes the rebels extremely powerful

Superships on the battlefield are now useless, the enemy kills the smaller ships quickly then flees, Imperials can only use this tactic if they build straight VSD and MISL fleets

INTs are even worse off, they have no fire power carry few troops and few fighters and cost 340 vp

I am writing this because i was screwed in a battle by a rule i didn't know existed. and this rule makes any Imperial faction defenseless

Signed
Swor
There are three ways to defeat your enemy. The first, and most obvious, is to better him in a trial of force. The best way is to have him destroy himself... The middle way is to destroy your enemy from within. Judicious application of the middle way shall make your blows more effective if you later take the way of force. From the middle way it is also possible to push your enemy onto the path of self-destruction.
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insecttoid3
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Post by insecttoid3 » Mon May 31, 2004 3:00 am

swor, apparently you expect EVERY fleet you ever face to run

Darth1o9
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Post by Darth1o9 » Mon May 31, 2004 3:09 am

no he expects them to stay and fight.... ;)

nickersonm
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Post by nickersonm » Mon May 31, 2004 3:23 am

He wants them to stay and fight, but expects them to run. Thus this petition.

Darth1o9
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Post by Darth1o9 » Mon May 31, 2004 3:35 am

i thought they did both ;) and no this pertition is because he didnt ahve enough fighter cover so he couldnt take out the fighter before they took out the fighter cover i thought ;)

[ 31. May 2004, 03:36 AM: Message edited by: Darth1o9 ]

Edge_28
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Post by Edge_28 » Mon May 31, 2004 6:33 am

well....toughy since i havent thought it out much....

I have a feeling that way back in history i mighta had a part in the creation of this rule....though it woulda only been second hand.

I absolutely hate the idea that massive fleets can meet...and mean a total wipe for one side. it simply wouldnt happen that way. Im sure this rule was meant to help with that. For it though...and i havent looked at the link..... you hsould have to earn the break away. The maps should be set up for it. But escape should always be possible. crap ....in reality ...theres no reason you shouldhave to advance across the map...since im pretty sure the shortest route AWAY would be in reverse now wouldnt it?

It sounds like you got burned hard swor. I do feel for you. I am a fighter heavy guy....but thats only cuz my ships have gone the way of battleships of old. Fighters perform the strike element of my fleet and the heavys are nothing more than artillery platforms... and will very likely never fire a shot in anger at another ship....unless its mop up duty. I didnt do that with naything like this rule in mind. I did it knowing that toe to toe my ships are outmatched easily by imp ships.

If push comes to shove though. My whole fleet is built to fight. It really does suck that your super couldnt engage. but would the dudes in the lil ships realy close ....just cuz an int field said so? hell no they wouldnt....even if it meant sailing in circles till everyones engines ran dry. if they can hold open the range....then they would.

Ive picked up the idea that you are somewhat anti fighter. I'd kill for a real super ship....but even if i had one...adequate power in the fighters would stil be there to help cover contingencies......lol there might even be a time i have to try and walk my own heavies accross a map to GET AWAY. hell yes i want fighters to help me attempt it. without them...im dead.

I rambled a bit there......but anything that helps with total erasure of a whole fleet jsut cuz even a lil lone int says so....is fine with me. did i say i feel for you swor....i hope you know i do.....heh.

Edge

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Post by Big Hed » Mon May 31, 2004 10:44 am

Yeah I know how it feels to get totaled because of a rule you aren't aware of Swor...although circumstances are slightly different here.

I do agree with Edge though. No fleet will plunge into a suicidal battle when it has the advantage of speed. It's just tactically unsound. Also giving the fleets the option to fully retreat from an INT while it may not be totally realistic (INTs have a range of what? A couple dozen LY?), should really be an option for players. It would help stop construction of super fleets, and just generally make things more fun. And I say this as a big fan of realism.

I think though that the issue of SSDs and such now being totally useless will be solved by C1 though. If it is a real problem. Using Eville's HW2 mod, heavy capital ships tend to have MASSIVE weapons range. Plus engines can be neutralized if your enemy is running [img]tongue.gif[/img] .

The only thing I can say for you is build V38s and Avengers. And VSDs are always a good aside. I know I'm doing it after I lost a certain ISD to 100 BWs over a certain world called Defiance ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img] .

Turgidson
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Post by Turgidson » Mon May 31, 2004 2:48 pm

As other people have written, a fleet that has the advantage of speed will never run straight towards a much slower supership. So, that's why that rule was put (and actually, I remember I was one of the peeps behind it) - but what I wrote was a setting with fleets that would start quite closer than what exists by default from the app.

Slight note on "why to cross the map and not go reverse" : you might imagine that "something in your back" (example : planet) prevents you from hypering from behind. The idea works if you have an "attacker" and a "defender", the later being the one in the lower orbit.

Note that in terms of fighters, Imps still have extremely good ones : TAs, TDs, and MISLs are all much faster than their Rep counterparts.


I guess that the HW2 mod will make battles easier, as you should be able to set long INT ranges, start the battle inside the INT bubble, and "just have to escape the bubble" to get out, in a more realistic fashion. ;)

Edge_28
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Post by Edge_28 » Mon May 31, 2004 4:08 pm

Originally posted by Turgidson:


Slight note on "why to cross the map and not go reverse" : you might imagine that "something in your back" (example : planet) prevents you from hypering from behind. The idea works if you have an "attacker" and a "defender", the later being the one in the lower orbit.

i do imagine that.....but only cuz it makes it easier for us to rationalize lil ships coming in range at all. Think same scenario in deep space.....what? are they worried about all that emptiness behind them? lol The ships have to cross the map because it would be wholely unfair to the attacker if he never got a shot at em.

I wouldnt consider heavy ships to be useless. Massive fleet of lil ships may be much more mobile, but you wont take and hold a thing with them. For tht you need heavies. Least in a regular player war environ. Even in the days of sail, a commander fled in the face of greater firepower. It was only with the advent of air power much later that engagement terms could be changed.

Edge

[ 31. May 2004, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Edge_28 ]

Turgidson
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Post by Turgidson » Mon May 31, 2004 4:34 pm

Yeah, I know that this "cross the map" rule is quite artificial, and can only be imaginated when you have a planet in your back (= you're the defender in a battle in orbit).

Also note that during most wars, "giant" fleet engagements have always been rare, and only occured :
- either when the smallest fleet HAD to fight, whether because of no way of escape, or of given orders, or of a combination of these elements (like : that harbour is not allowed to be captured, fight or die)
- or when both fleets thought they'd have a chance winning the engagement, and thus were willing to battle

In other cases, the outnumbered fleet would try to escape.


And, yes, biggies are still useful when you try to "hold" a position (especially if the balancing gives these biggies a better value/price ratio).

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