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Discussions of various Star Trek ships and mods for Cataclysm

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Captain Pierce
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Post by Captain Pierce » Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:44 am

Well, you see, this is where we get into my personal take on the Trek universe again. [img]smile.gif[/img] I don't see the Danube, rollbar or no, as being a particular effective combat platform. Off the top of my head, the only fight I remember a runabout winning is when Sisko managed to squeak by Cal Hudson's homemade Peregrine clones. They've always struck me more as utility ships--which actually jibes with the backstory presented in the DS9 Tech Manual, where the runabout is given mission-specific interchangeable modules and all sorts of stuff that we never saw on the show. ;) Yeah, they can fight if they have, and they don't entirely suck at it, but my view of the ship is that they're better at hauling people from place to place than blowing stuff up. Actually, the DS9TM bit about the mission-specific modules is actually a good argument for putting it in the Mimic slot, because it could be equipped with holoprojector modules or something technobabbly like that. :D

One of the reasons I hesitate to move the Type 9 to Mimic, BTW, is because I can't quite figure out where the holoprojection hardware would go... ;)

The thing about the Delta Flyer is, since so much of Voyager is obviously complete bull[bleep], it's much easier to screw with for the purposes of the mod. [img]smile.gif[/img] Not only from the terms of weapon loadout--and, just for the record, it's not that the DF has a "canon" loadout that necessarily works for the mod, it's just that (again) we can make up about whatever we want for it--but also in terms of a role. With the Type 9 in the Recon slot, the Delta Flyer makes a good "heavy shuttle" counterpart. Not quite an actual useful warship yet, but less useless than the Type 9. ;)

Also, with regards to making the Ramming Frig a "Dreadnought" sort of thing... doesn't strike me as a very Federation thing to do.

Xiggy
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Post by Xiggy » Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:09 am

In regards to the peregrines, the Maquis were by no means stupid and you can bet they'd outfit their craft to be able to go toe to toe with the Cardies, which would be on par or relatively below the Feds tech level. And if it makes any sense, Cal's peregrine disabled Dax and Kira's runabout with relative easy. By Inferno's Light, we see the Runabout Garak and Worf took get pounded a bit by Jemmy warships. That should sort of gauge the Danube's strength. It should be more powerful than a shuttle which only has one phaser bank, and on par with the DF. By the same token of the Danube's mission pods, those can be outfitted for sensors too. Basically, it isn't so much that the Danube is a warship, it's simply better than the Type 9. So either way, I do not think the Type 9 should be either Recon or Aco. Danube and DF are interchangeable within these two slots.

Alright, then Type 9 to Swarmer slot. Drop the Peregrine from Swarmer. Move Raven from MCV to Mimic, and place the Incursion as MCV. I know it ain't canon, but it makes a bit more sense than the civilian science ship. Alas, I do not have a source for Incursion models.

And the Fed dreadnought-like torpedo:

1) It's unmanned
2) You're fighting the Borg, victory by any means neccessary should win out in this case.


Summary: My Suggested ITL Race_Sect shiplist

Recon-Danube
Acolyte-Delta Flyer
Mimic-Raven
ACV- Defiant
MCV- Incursion
Ramm Frig- U[nmanned] [Q]uantum [R]amming V[ehicle]
MBF- Sovvy

Hive-Akira
Swarmer-Your idea or Type9
Leech-Nanite Torp
Sentinel- Hmm, I guess this will work but can the shield wall be disabled and Sentinel be made into a Combat Vehicle? [Edit= How about the Renegade Nova?]
Carrier- Your idea, all I can input is flying shuttlebay
Destroyer-Gotta love the Steamrunner
Dreadnought- Super-Steamrunner

[ 21. August 2004, 03:22 AM: Message edited by: Xiggy ]

lonh
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Post by lonh » Sat Aug 21, 2004 8:08 pm

well heres my ideas on it

recon: nova
alcolyte: sabre
mimic: danube

avc: defiant
mvc: raven

ramming frigate: prometheus
multibeam: sovereign
hive: steamrunner

leech: workerbee
sentinel: something that resembles the self replication mines in ds9

worker: packrat
processor: prospector
destroyer: akira
drednought: galaxy
carrier: bailey

command ship: melbourne w/hangerbay

clee-san: interpid
faal-courm: dawnstar

just thought youd like the imput

Darth1o9
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Post by Darth1o9 » Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:46 am

nah dude, that wont work in teh ramming frigate man, the rest is cool. im gona ahve a little think and come back with a idea for ship slots :D

*Edit*

recon: sabre
alcolyte: interpid
mimic: danube

avc: defiant
mvc: raven

ramming frigate: lock the slot ;)
multibeam: sovereign
hive: akira

leech: workerbee
sentinel: wot eh said

worker: packrat
processor: prospector
destroyer: prometheus
drednought: galaxy
carrier: bailey

command ship: that thing cap was designing ages ago ;)

right or even the bailey as a hive frigate and i remember seeing a PS2 game that had a ship that you could use for a carrier, have no idea wot it was called but i willsee if i can get picture

[ 22. August 2004, 12:51 AM: Message edited by: Darth1o9 ]

Captain Pierce
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Post by Captain Pierce » Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:43 pm

This has really has nothing to do with the discussion, since the Peregrine was never in the shiplist, but I'm going to have to guess that the Maquis "Peregrines" were at least somewhat inferior to the Starfleet ones. If we're going under the assumption that the Peregrine started as a support courier, say during the Cardassian War era, and that during said Cardassian War somebody (maybe a young Starfleet officer named Cal Hudson) modified them to be tactical fighters, and Starfleet liked them so much that they started building the Peregrine version as new construction, then the new-construction Peregrines would have state-of-the-art systems that the Maquis wouldn't have access to. Cal could create a reasonable facsimile, but I have to think that a Dominion War Peregrine could fly circles around one of his hot-rodded support couriers. ;)

Back to the ITL discussion... ;) lonh, the Ramming Frigate is indeed a bad spot for the Prometheus, as Darth said, but let me explain why. [img]smile.gif[/img] The ramming frigate's only method of attack is to ram. This cannot be changed. It also cannot have any guns other than the "cutting laser"--and, believe it or not, you can't even change the location of the cutting laser.

You know, I just had a really evil idea... after "Nemesis," maybe the Sovereign should be the ramming frigate... [img]graemlins/eviltail.gif[/img]

Darth--the Bailey as the hive frigate? Are you freaking kidding me? [img]tongue.gif[/img] If the "Typhon" from the Playstation game was going anywhere, it would be hive frigate, but I don't see any reason to try and work it in when we're having this much problem finding places for the ships we already have. ;)

lonh
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Post by lonh » Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:47 pm

thats true about the sovereign. you could use it as a ramming frigate and the prometheus as a multibeam. [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

Xiggy
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Post by Xiggy » Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:06 pm

The Prometheus is a child the SOA and Trek modders keep locked in a closet. I guess they don't like Andy Dick too much.

Cap'n, I compared it to Peregrine's for this:

If Peregrine=Danube, Delta Flyer = Danube > Type 9.

Nice dodge of my suggestions tho, I salute thee!

Captain Pierce
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Post by Captain Pierce » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:09 pm

Who does like Andy Dick? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

If all I had to worry about in making this shiplist was which ship kicked more ass, then it would be pretty simple. [img]smile.gif[/img] Unfortunately, that's not the way it works in Cataclysm, even more so than in Homeworld. I have to look at what ship is best for what role--and not just in a vacuum of X ship is best for Y role, but keeping in mind all the other roles as well. When I consider the Recon and Aco slots, certain the Danube COULD go in either of them, although it would take a certain amount of BS to slide it into Aco. ;) (Not necessarily a bad thing, mind you.) But, when I expand this consideration to include the "other" fighter slot, the Mimic, it just seems that the Danube fits best there if there's other ships to fill the Recon and Aco slots, which there are.

I'm also trying to keep things as canon as possible, except where there's nothing canon that fits. That pretty much rules the Incursion out, I have to say. I've suggested it before myself for the mod, but since then I've come to the conclusion that I just don't like it. :D Same for the "Defiant pathfinder"--the implication of the DS9TM is that such a ship was never constructed.

I seem to recall that I was able to sort of remove the shield wall once, but it wasn't real successful. At any rate, you can't really make it into a combat vehicle, becaause it has HW Defender-style "bob and shoot" AI. ;)

As for making the Type 9 the Swarmer... the thing's not tough enough for the Recon slot in your eyes, and you want to put it in a slot that exists ONLY to shoot at things?

Xiggy
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Post by Xiggy » Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:58 am

I know you have to keep things balanced, and for the most part, everything on the shiplist is balanced. This isn't about a fanboi shiplist, cap'n. I'm just saying this in terms of "universe realism". It would bug me that something that would be on the "scale" of a swarmer if Cataclsym was actually the ST universe shoudl be more powerful than it really is. The Type 9 is a short range vehicle, and it something of it's sends lends itself to be something on par with a swarmer. The Danube is the better canon option IMO. In regards to the Mimic, the Danube would work there. I'm struggling for find an analogy, but I'm basically saying why make things smaller than they really should be.

Regarding the Renegade Nova and Incursion:

Neither are canon. Correct. However, the Renegade Nova appears in something "officially" signed off on one of the DS9 production team: Ronald Moore. He doesn't say everything in there is gospel, but it surely beats out something that only appears in two licensed products.

Disabling Shield Wall is secondary. Nobody uses it anyway. I say placing the Renegade Nova there would fit well because the sort of ship wouldn't be dodging bullets constantly. The four torp launchers (I'll ignore the others mounted rear. That small of ship wouldn't have enough torps to sustain itself in combat with 6 tubes.) would require a lot of juice. It's job is to sit somewhere and spit out torpedoes. Either keep it with only photons, or have it fire a sequence of 5 torp spreads: on the fifth spread it'll fire quantums. That's my humble suggestion.

To keep things canon, replace the MCV Incursion with the holoship for Insurrection. Crap movie, still canon. And fits it's purpose too.

Captain Pierce
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Post by Captain Pierce » Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:49 am

The Type 9 would not, I must admit, be the worst Swarmer in the world. In fact, it's filled the Swarmer slot in both of the dev builds I've done. Overall, though, watching it in the slot, I'm just not entirely happy with it.

Another reason for wanting something new in the Swarmer slot is this: we've never actually seen the Akira in its alleged role as carrier. My explanation for this is maybe it's because the "fighter" the Akira was designed to carry wasn't ready yet. It's just a bit on the BS side, but gimme a break, look what I got to work with here. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Here's the thing with the Defiant pathfinder: the only source for its existence specifically states that no examples were built. ;) Well, except for the four-nacelled version that's supposedly zipping around at high speed... Anyway, quite frankly, in many ways I trust the actual authors of the DS9TM (Herman Zimmerman, Rick Sternbach, and Doug Drexler) more than I trust Ron Moore as to what's canon. :D Trek writers often seem to not care what's "canon," as long as they can write something they thing is cool (the incredible continuity error from the DS9 take on the Mirror Universe comes to mind, where the Mirror Klingons went from being able to cloak to NOT being able to cloak when the writers came up with the gag of Quark and Rom stealing a cloaked cloaking device :rolleyes: ). This leads into a bigger issue, the fact that often in Trek, the right hand doesn't know what the left hand (or the left foot, or the right foot, etc.) is doing. I don't know what goes on behind the scenes on these shows, but you know something is effed up when the SFX team delivers a model of a ship with "NX-59560" painted on it, and the set construction crew builds sets for the same ship with "NX-74913" on the MSD. :confused: Or when an MSD shows landing gear on a ship (the Defiant) that the writers never even considered putting on it. The TNG and DS9 TM's have a lot of stuff in them that makes sense from the perspective of behind-the-scenes guys trying to flesh out the universe, but don't really make sense in the universe itself. [img]smile.gif[/img] Anyway, my ramblings aside, I have to conclude that no "renegage Novas" were ever made, and thus the ship has no place in the mod. Another reason for me not to make the Sentinel into a "real" ship, BTW, is that I wasn't entirely happy with the Steamrunner's performance in the slot. Even with the "artillery ship" explanation, I just didn't like it there as much as in the Destroyer slot.

And the only way I see the Insurrection Holoship working as an MCV is if some moron installed the holoemitters backwards. :D Seriously, the Holoship makes no sense to me. Picard (and presumably by example the rest of the Federation, since Picard always stands for what the Federation believes ;) ) was about ready to shoot Mira Sorvino's dad--ERRRRRRRRRRR, Worf's brother--out the photon tube for pulling exactly the same stunt that the Holoship was apparently designed to pull. So, why would Starfleet even build one? I'm guessing that the Holoship was just something the renegade Admiral in Insurrection built for himself out of spare parts...

Finally, Insurrection is not a crap movie. I quite liked it, actually.

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